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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:14 pm 

Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 12:10 am
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SikhNet actually published this article by IJ Singh!

DERAS & BABAS: Why So Many?
by I.J. Singh

Internet traffic tells me of the mind boggling proliferation of Babas and Deras in the countryside of Punjab in India.

Deras (Lit. Centers) are like gurduaras, but not entirely. They preach Sikhi but often with variations that usually don’t hew entirely to the mainstream teaching or the Sikh Rehat Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) as we know it. The Baba is the man who heads a particular Dera shaping and controlling its activities. I have never heard of a woman head of a dera but there may be a rare one around. According to one report there may be 9,000 deras in Punjab today – and multiplying faster than fruit flies. It is not so much the idea but the number that wakes one up like a cold shower on a winter morning.

Deras seem to collect oodles of money. Corrupt management, heinous sexual and drug abuse, along with wild distortions of Sikh practices, doctrines and teachings have been widely and wildly alleged. I concede that accusations do not necessarily prove guilt. But with so much smoke, some fire likely exists as well. And we need to know why and wherefore of that.

Every so often such allegations puncture the veil of secrecy around the deras and make largely unwelcome news. Ergo, most sane Sikhs conclude that deras deserve to be condemned and babas run out of Sikhi.

And I agree. Now with my view on record I want to parse the matter from different viewpoints.

Given that an unbelievably growing number of deras and babas dot the countryside of Punjab and they are ever popular, the question is why? Surely the Guru Granth offers a message that is supremely right in content, immeasurable in depth and entirely complete.

Then why do people gravitate to these imperfect so called “masters” — better yet, pretenders? Here we need some critical thinking, but what is such reasoning and what are its components?

The role of the critical thinker is to ask questions and only truth matters. There are many parts to critical thinking: There are the “Advocates” who make a passionate case deliberately for one point of view or the other. Then there is the “Devil’s advocate” to unearth hidden agendas and special pleading while convincingly embracing contrary positions. And don’t forget “Analysts” who examine parts of a structure or thing to gain better understanding of the whole. Each of the three advocates need to be honest in their cause and dedicated to their purpose. Collectively, this process makes “critical intelligence.” Let’s use it to shed light, not heat on the issue.

As an aside, I ask you to keep in mind that total objectivity doesn’t really exist; we live in a world of different degrees of subjectivity. In somewhat ironic honor of this principle, half a century ago some of us graduate students at a medical school, including I, created a semi-formal fraternity dubbed the “Society for the Lack of Objectivity in Biological Sciences” with the deceptively catchy but accurate acronym “SLOBS.”

Given that Deras and Babas are undoubtedly a social problem for Sikhs why are they so popular? How should we begin to explore the associated Sikh social realities and their problems?

Why do Sikhs frequent deras and babas? There has to be an intensive and extensive exploratory process before we rush to an Alice in Wonderland type of verdict that speaks of “Judgment first and trial afterwards, if at all.” Such an approach trashes the idea of a search for truth.

First we need extensive survey data. Not by simplistic “yes or no” questionnaires but by in depth interviews conducted by trained empathetic interviewers — with questions that expose and lay out prejudices and assumptions that we all have when we divide the world into “us” and “them.”

What do people need that deras and babas provide, even if incompletely and at a cost, but much better than our marble and gold encrusted gurduaras and holier than thou granthis?

This will provide us informed generalizations, even painful specifics about us. We need such data. Let us not just assume that we know. But keep in mind that any community has individuals that don’t always walk in lockstep. And we need to engage and understand these contrarians as well – including those who patronize these babas — false shops of Sikhi.

But labeling them false, as I just did, won’t do. An underlying base of empathy is essential. To get a solid view, we need to hear from the rebels of our community as well and not just dismiss them as irrelevant. They have much to tell us.

There is yet another direction we can come from in order to understand the lure of babas and deras. The human condition and perspective is special.

Humans learn and work best in groups and communities of families, neighbors and friends. Are our majestic marble and gold gurduaras structured to promote such cohesion and communication in communities or are the crowds of worshippers such that the attendees remain individuals without connecting with each other? Is it something like a flock of friends or family sitting in the same room, each person busy with his or her electronic toy trolling a social site? They are not alone but still lonely. As I like to say a sangat of strangers is no sangat at all. They only rob me of my solitude without giving me company.

I know I have made a loaded statement. But think if this is what gurduaras promote these days?

From a life shaped by elders – parents, teachers and successful role models we become conditioned to follow authority in a somewhat vertically stratified existence.

The Sikh Gurus, iconoclastic masters as they were, have been transformed from unparalleled teachers of a worldview into icons to be worshipped. This is so in spite of their teaching. A vertical flow of teaching where the message descends to the follower is not how the Gurus taught. Look at how Guru Nanak taught at Hardwar when he splashed water towards the West as opposed to the time honored way to face east. He taught not by edict but by a conversation.

In a vertical dialogue the message is corrupted, distorted or diminished on its way down but in a horizontal dialogue wisdom results. Certainly, in the last decade of his life when Guru Nanak nurtured a community at Kartarpur his preferred method was horizontal conversation. He and his Sikhs worked in the fields together. They gathered for evening darbar together and lived as a ‘spiritual family’ i.e. Sadhsangat.



There are many more such examples from the other Gurus as well. Sikhi gives us a community in which authority rests in the teachings and in the community (Sangat). Unfortunately we are rooted in the Indian feudal culture; it is as if a life of dependency is coded in our DNA so that we look up to sources of authority for guidance and even for control of our lives — even when the teaching of these fake modern masters contradicts the teachings and practices of the Gurus.

Such thinking clearly conditions us to be seduced by any charismatic figure that walks by. Deras and Babas fill that void completely and fully. Our gurduaras, on the other hand, do not and nor should they.

The traditional cultural framework then may be largely responsible for the reality that we see today. This conditioning is pretty much a universal human reality no matter the religion or nationality but it is the defining trait of the Indian lifestyle, starting with the caste system and including the Indian religious, cultural, social and even political realities.

I would say that Sikhi, having originated and flowered in the Indian culture has become its prisoner even though this is contrary to the message of the Founder-Gurus of Sikhi.

In this matter other cultures display similar behavior; as a parallel just look at the surfeit of tele-evangelists who sell Christianity to the masses for far more than a pretty penny.

What exactly do deras and babas deliver that makes them so popular? Are they doling out cash, comfort, consolation, education, food, love or some other panacea? Is theirs a replay of “Eat, Love and Pray?” Why do so many Sikhs choose the way of the deras and babas? The reasons may be complex and many.

Could it be that in part it is critical how the message is delivered in gurduaras today?

Let me explain from the point of view of an unrelated discipline that I teach. I have taught human anatomy for umpteen years. Simply stated, a textbook of anatomy, say Gray’s Anatomy, has much more information that’s more clearly laid out than in my head. Then why would students come to my class? Because, perhaps, I can connect them to the message in their language and context so that they feel it makes sense whereas their direct interaction with the voluminous textbook may be overwhelming, forbidding, and even obscure.

Do deras and babas relate to the listener and connect what they know of Sikhi with life as it is lived today whereas the listener knows not how to do that and is perhaps baffled by what he reads? Such teaching and communication is an art that some are better at than others.

We need to train granthis to understand their listeners (students - sangat) and communicate the message in that context, something that far too many unfortunately fail to do.

But there is an important, indeed hopeful, silver lining here: The fact that people throng to deras tells us that they are hungry both for the message of Sikhi as well as for companionship and community. The teaching suffers because the methodology, presentation, needs of students and related matters are perhaps being ignored in gurduaras, but not by the deras and babas. Have our gurduaras become too impersonal and disconnected from people and their lives? This is what my cogitation seems to overwhelmingly suggest.

Of course, in the process, deras often provide a corrupted version of the lesson to make it more palatable and easily swallowed. This we must not recommend nor do.

But first we need an exhaustive survey as I suggest here and then we need cooler heads to explore its meaning and devise policy steps that are feasible.


Please! Mine is not a defense of deras and babas; it is merely a plea and a first step in understanding them. We need to understand the enemy before we declare war on it.

As they say: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:21 pm 

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Members of Gurmat Learning Zone have complained about Gursant Singh broadcasting their conversation on FB, so we are erasing all but Antion Vikram Singh's contributions.

The thread begins with several Sikhs expressing wonder and amazement that Sikhnet has published Ij Singh's article, Deras and Babas: Why So Many?. which they assert, perfectly defines them as a Yogi Bhajan Dera. The moderator of GLZ defends Bhajanism, saying it is not a Dera, that Sikh Dharma and 3HO are distinct and different things.

Antion Vikram Singh -- Veer Singh ji, what sets a dera apart from a gurdwara is that there is one man (sometimes a woman, but rarely) whose word and authority is above everything else, even SGGS. That was certainly true while Yogi Bhajan was alive and it is true now, as much as is possible for the authority of a dead man to be asserted by his followers. The primary focus of 3HO is on "the teachings of Yogi Bhajan"; Gurbani and Sikh Rehit Maryada ALWAYS takes second place. Therefore it is a dera.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:29 pm 

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Antion Vikram Singh Meredith While it is true that 3HO and Sikh Dharma are different legal entities, non profit corporations, in everyday life there is no distinction made between them unless it is a business or financial matter. I was director and chairman of 3HO of San Diego and Sikh Dharma of San Diego for eleven years so I think I have a pretty good idea of how this works. When I was a part of 3HO, I and my fellow Bhajanists would generally refer to the whole movement, its membership and its constituent parts as "3HO". We only would use "Sikh Dharma" to refer to our version of Sikhi


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:12 pm 

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Sikhs post and discuss the idea that Bhajanism is a Baba Siri Chand Dera.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith The following is a list of statements, all of which are true. After you read each statement ask yourself the question: "Is this Gurmat? Or is it something else?"

1. Yogi Bhajan taught that you had to make a connection with a living spiritual teacher.

2. Yogi Bhajan taught that you should meditate on his photograph.

3. Yogi Bhajan taught that the reason that Sikhs wear turbans is to adjust the plates in your skull and thus regulate your electro-magnetic energy.

4. Yogi Bhajan taught that the reason that Sikhs wear Kacha is that the pressure of the Kachcha on your thighs stimulates your liver.

5. Yogi Bhajan taught that you should have a photo of the golden idol of Sri Chand, that is outside the.
Gurdwara in Espanola, in your home.

6. Yogi Bhajan taught that chanting certain Shabads bring certain results:

a. Mayraa Man Lochai Gur Darshan Taa-ee: This brings prosperity, multified a thousand-fold squared.

b. The Twenty-Ninth Pauree of Jap Ji: This protects you from your enemies by simply vaporizing those who wish you harm.

c. The Twenty-Second Pauree of Jap Ji: This brings you victory in legal battles.

d. The Thirteenth Pauree of Jap Ji: This gives you the occult knowledge of infinity.

e. The Twenty-Fifth Pauree of Jap Ji: All your needs are pre-fulfilled. Prosperity, virtue, estate, and wealth are yours without asking.

7. Yogi Bhajan taught that Gurmukhi is a magical, mystical language in that by chanting, reciting, or.
singing, your tongue is pressing on certain pressure points in your upper palate and thus certain glands in your brain are stimulated to secrete hormones, resulting in a kundalini high.

8. Yogi Bhajan taught that Anand Sahib was the ultimate kundalini experience because for each 5.Paurees, your kundalini would pass through a corresponding chakra. 40 Paurees divided by 5 equals.
the 8 chakras. This also holds true for Jap Ji.

9. Yogi Bhajan taught that abortion was all right if it was done before the 120th day, when the soul entered the womb.

10. Yogi Bhajan taught that you could be liberated in 40 days if you practiced kundalini yoga.

11. Yogi Bhajan taught that he would take on all the karma of his students and that the reason that he was so sick was that his students had a lot of bad karma.

12. Yogi Bhajan taught he should name everyone, not by consulting the Guru, but by using astrology and numerology.

13. Yogi Bhajan taught that he could read auras and even read your destiny.

14. Yogi Bhajan taught that when he died, only his physical body would be gone. His soul would then.
reside in his subtle body which would hover over his students, while he still taught and led tantric. To his students he would not be dead but immortal.

This is only a sample of what Yogi Bhajan taught.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:54 am 

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Sikhs at GLZ says they recognize the list from Gursant Singh's activism.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith These 14 points were actually put together some years ago by a man named Amar Prakash Singh

I have had them in my computer for some time, but I will admit that seeing Gursant Singh's posting of them jogged my memory of them and caused me to post them here. I had 20 years as a Bhajanist, almost from the very beginning (1970). I will confirm that I either heard, saw or read these things for myself from his own mouth or heard from unimpeachable sources that he actually said ALL of them, yes, including number 11. Anyone is welcome to question me about any of these points.

Transition into Infinity
transition-into-infinity.blogspot.com|By Amar Prakash


Sikhs discuss what Sikhs believe about Baba Siri Chand and Guru Nanak's relationship with his son.

[b]Antion Vikram Singh Meredit
h Veer Moderator ji, back in July we were having a similar kind of discussion here on SLM. You wrote a very long post to me, but my friends requested that we terminate the discussion. I now feel it is appropriate that I respond to some of the points you made at that time as they need a response. You said "Yes, there are big pictures of Yogi Bhajan, so does the Nanaksar tradition and many others." and I would ask you in which Nanaksar or other gurdwara have you seen anything like this?

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith's photo of a yoga class with huge photo of YB wth hair down..

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Or this?

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith's photo of Guru Bachan Singh teaching in So America with huge phto of YB to left of stage and huge pic of Guru Ram Das ji to right..

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith In your post you were obviously very impressed with the consistency of the Bhajanists in their morning practice. Others have also been impressed and commented on it. It is indeed a praiseworthy thing and I do not criticize them for this; rather I salute and respect them. The question comes when you analyze what they actually do in the amrit vela. I personally think that everything they do is just fine - as long as they consider themselves Bhajanists. If they consider themselves Sikhs - then there's a problem.




[b]Antion Vikram Singh Meredith
Veer Jespal Singh Brar ji, I am 99% certain that these are taken at yoga classes. So you might say "well, this is not Sikhi, so what does it matter?" My first point is to emphasize the near worship of YB, even amongst yoga students. But the much more disturbing issue is the way that the Bhajanists have all but eliminated mention of the Guru Sahiban other than Guru Ram Das Sahib. The yoga students are taught that there is a "Golden Chain" of yoga teaching. It used to be that the "Golden Chain" came from Baba Siri Chand to Baba Virsa Singh to YB. After YB fell out with Virsa Singh (1971) the "Golden Chain" was amended to come directly from Guru Ram Das ji to YB. The progression of the Guruship from Guru Nanak Sahib to SGGS is barely mentioned, certainly not in yoga classes. I know you are likely to say "but these are only yoga classes so what does it matter?" OK, fine. But then why bring Guru Ram Das ji into Kundalini Yoga at all? Bear with me Jespal Singh ji, I am at this moment working on a full explanation of what Bhajanists do in the amrit vela and will post ASAP.


The moderator conceeds that he has never seen anything like the big images of Yogi Bhajan in any Gurdwara. He asks for more info about Bhajanist sadhana.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith In 1992 YB commanded that all of his students - Sikhs and non-Sikhs do something he called the "Aquarian Sadhana". This was to be done "forever'. In other words it is a permanent part of Bhajanism and is unlikely to ever be changed unless someone arises who has equal or even superior status to YB. Unlikely in the forseeable future.
The "Aquarian Sadhana" is a curious mixture of Gurbani, mantras that are kinda, sorta Sikh and at least one Hindu Sanskrit mantra.

This is how it breaks down.

Japji Sahib - OK, it's great that people are being exposed to the great Bani of Guru Nanak Sahib.

Kundalini Yoga Session - That's OK with me, I do not object to physical fitness for Sikhs, or anyone for that matter.

Then the "Aquarian Sadhana" begins in earnest. The sangat will chant or sing the following mantras:

Mantra - Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam Siri Waheguru

This was given the name "Adi Shakti Mantra" by YB. As you can see the mantra consists of various words from Gurbani patched together in a way that does not occur in SGGS.

Reputedly this mantra was given to the late Maharaj Virsa Singh when Baba Siri Chand appeared to him in a vision. It is the main mantra for followers of Baba Virsa Singh. He called it "Naam" and gave it to his followers - including YB - as an initiation. YB brought it to the US in 1969 and it became the first mantra he told his yoga students to chant. Tine: 7 minutes

Mantra - Wah Yantee.
The websits http://www.kundalini-yoga-info.com/waah-yantee.html... describes this mantra as follows:

"This mantra was given by Patanjali, a great Yogi. It is said that over two thousand years ago Patanjali was lecturing students on prophets who would come in the iron age, the age of Kaliyug.
He prophesied Guru Nanak Dev Ji's coming into the world and gave the "Waa Yantee" mantra which describes Wahe Guru. The "Waa Yantee" mantra also predicted the coming of the "Wahe Guru" mantra.
The "Wah Yantee" mantra is known for awakening the intuition. Wha Yantee is one of the mantras on every Aquarian Sadhana CD. According to Yogi Bhajan the practice of this mantra is the culmination of hundreds of years of prayer."


This is a Hindu and Sanskrit mantra. Enough said. Time 7 minutes.

Mantra - Mool Mantra
No comment necessary. Time 7 minutes.

Mantra - Sat Sri Akal
Sat siri siri akal, maha akal maha akal, sat nam, akal moorat, waheguru.

This mantra is almost certainly a fabrication of YB and has no relationship to any Gurbani, Time 7 minutes.

Mantra - Rakhe Rakhanhar
This is the final shabad from Rehiraas Sahib. Time 7 minutes.

Mantra - Waheguru Wahejio
Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahejio. This mantra does occur in Gurbani and is done sitting in the yogic posture known as Virasan. Time 22 minutes.

Mantra - Guru Ram Das

Guru Guru Waheguru Guru Ram Das Guru. This mantra was reputed;ly given to YB by Guru Ram Das ji himself. Time 5 minutes.

This represents the entire "Aquarian Sadhana". Is it in any way bad? I don't think so - EXCEPT when it is represented to be part of Sikhi. As I said previously this is a pastiche of Gurbani, mantras that are kinda, sorta Sikh and at least one Hindu Sanskrit mantra. Since Sikh Rehit Maryada only approves compostions ofr SGGS, Dasm Granth, and writings of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nandlal one has to aks, if you call yourself a Sikh why are you dabbling in these things?

Waa Yantee, 2,000 years old mantra, Author: Patanjali, Kundalini Yoga
This mantra was given by Patanjali, a great Yogi. It is...
kundalini-yoga-info.com


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:58 pm 

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Moderator expresses appreciation of all the good Yogi Bhajan did.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Veer, t's all very well to accentuate the positive. But there is a huge dark side to 3HO/SD. We have not touched on the lives that he ruined - there were many. We have not touched on the hundreds of children whose parents were coerced, pressured and bullied into sending them off to substandard schools in India, while paying American rates of private school tuition. I wonder where the surplus money went? These children - including my own two girls - were abused scholastically, emotionally, nutritionally, physically and sometimes sexually. We have not discussed the heinous crimes committed by people who were YB's right hand men. We have not touched on the people who were pressured to work for little or no money while YB and his so-called staff drove around in luxury cars and ate at swanky restaurants. We have not touched on the people whom he consciously set out ot destroy - and you can include me in that group. There is much, much more to 3HO/SD than you have experienced and what you aware of - and a lot of it is very unpleasant.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Veer, let me refer to your post of July 1st when you said : "Vikram Singh Ji, you more than anyone should know that 3HO is not a Sikh organization but a yoga organization."

I spent 20 years very much on the inside of 3HO/SD. As I have already said to you, "when I was a part of 3HO, I and my fellow Bhajanists would generally refer to the whole movement, its membership and its constituent parts as "3HO". We only would use "Sikh Dharma" to refer to our version of Sikhi." I think you made the mistake of believing what the Bhajanists told you about 3HO being "only a yoga organization". As some posters said earlier, they really are expert at presenting to Punjabi Sikhs the parts of 3HO/SD that would be palatable and inoffensive to them and keeping the rest of it under wraps.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith And, also on July 1st, you went on to say

"Vikram Singh, your personal frustrations with Yogiji should not make you negative. I think you are confused between 3HO and those who follow Sikhi."

No, my friend. You are the one who is "confused between 3HO and those who follow Sikhi". They are ALL Bhajanists and for them the teachings of YB come first. Before Gurbani, before Sikh Rehit Maryada, before Sikh Itihas.


Antion Vikram Singh Meredith OK, Veer, I get it. You, who lived in a 3HO ashram (or was it a Sikh Dharma ashram, do tell) for a short time and went to a few solstices, know better than me the difference between 3HO and SD. All I did was to devote 20 years of my life with both organizations, knew Yogi Bhajan intimately, heard him talk often about his ideas of the functions of the organizations, watched how SD was inserted into 3HO in around 1972, went to every Summer Solstice (except 1971 when I was in England), was part of the so-called Khalsa Council, traveled to and taught in 3HO ashrams all around the world, was chairman of both a 3HO and an SD non-profit corporation, etc. Should I go on? Therefore I bow before your obviously superior knowledge and admit that you know more than me about this (sarc).

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith

"Also, the "American Sikhs" represent the population. So if there are scoundrels and abusers you cannot blame the entire group."

Bhai Sahib, I'm not blaming the entire group. The overwhelming majority of Bhajanists are fine, idealistic people. HOWEVER, those who have been around for a long time are in denial about some very ugly stuff. 3HO/SD is built on a web of deceit and lies and the leadership knows it. They have chosen to try and maintain the status quo rather than facing the truth. All I want is for the truth to be told. If ANY organization would be destroyed by the truth being told, it deserves to be destroyed.


Antion Vikram Singh Meredith

"Please elaborate on the foundation of deceit & lies..."

I don't really want to go here because it is a can of worms but, let's look at 3 staple beliefs of 3HO.
1. YB was a master of Kundalini Yoga by the time he was 16 years old. 2. Kundalini Yoga (as taught by Yogi Bhajan) is an ancient and secret science. 3. YB was a Mahan Tantric (master of Tantric Yoga, he was the only one on Earth and he was given that title by a Tibetan Lama who studied with Sant Hazara Singh. I invite you and everyone to read an academic paper on the origins of Kundalini Yoga and YB's credentials as a teacher.

From Maharaj to Mahan Tantric...


Antion Vikram Singh Meredith

"...many "3HO" folks regarded Yogiji not as another mortal. When he cannot live up to the expectations than it is his fault?"

One thing you need to understand is that there was one person primarily responsible for creating the image of YB as being larger than life - and that was YB himself. He demanded that people treat him as being larger than life and not as an ordinary mortal. If you read the book that he demanded be published with the title "A Man Called The Siri Singh sahib" or even on his Wikipedia page (which is jealously guarded by his "official historian" who will not allow any criticism on the page) you will find out that all of the information about his early life - before he came to the US - comes from him and him alone. It is ALL self-aggrandizing and much of is is simply not true.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith For example he would say over and over again how he was a master of Kundalini Yoga by the time he was 16. Yet, as is pointed out in the article referenced above, in five different newspaper interviews in 1969 and 1970, YB himself said that he began his study of yoga when he was 18. I know which version I would choose to believe. Another myth of his youth is that he led the people of his village in Pakistan to safety in India during partition of 1947. Yet YB's own father told me a very different story. It was always his choice to be viewed as a larger life figure so it is hardly surprising that his students feel that it is the right thing to do to sustain that image.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:14 pm 

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Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Charanjit Kaur says "Veer Antion Vikram Singh Meredith, who controls donations received from Sikhnet and Sikh Dharma?"

A good question. I am now 24 years removed from the organization so I don't know. I do know that there were many for-profit and non-profit corporations set up to handle the money coming in. So much so that the judge in the recent 3HO lawsuit likened to group of Russian nesting dolls (the dolls that fit inside each other). It was - and probably still is - a horrendously complicated set up. But, when he was alive, YB kept control over everything.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Jespal Singh Brar ji says: "but some put him on a pedestal to micromanage their lives, for example when to go for vacation, what color car to buy...etc" Bhai Sahib, you have it the wrong way round. He demanded to micromanage the lives of his students. If you did something without asking him he would yell at you and abuse you. It was his choice that things be that way. The closer you were to him, the more he would insist on micro managing everything in your reality.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:25 pm 

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Quote:
GLZ ModeratorBhai Sahib Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Ji, it is irrelevant that many of the folks are both in 3HO and Sikh Dharma, there are two different vehicles set up for different purposes. It is some who are confused and lump them together. There had been thought why they were set up separately. Also, the "American Sikhs" represent the population. So if there are scoundrels and abusers you cannot blame the entire group. Same as there are folks born in Sikh families who do negative stuff. You cannot blame all Sikhs for it. Yes, we collectively feel a sense of shame but you cannot blame all based on individuals. You also need to realize that there are growing pains in all organizations. There are also existential crisis in the equation...


As someone who doesn't have a facebook account, many thanks to Antion Vikram Singh for posting this thread here.

I don't see anyone blaming the entire group as the GLZ Moderator alleges. Personally, I put the blame primarily on Yogi Bhajan, but the moderator doesn't allow that. His argument is that since YB purportedly did some good things, we must not look at the bad things let alone criticize them. He calls this "being neutral."

This is a fallacious argument. It does not matter if a philanthropist donates millions of dollars to charity (which YB never did), if he is also guilty of heinous crimes against the innocent he MUST be held responsible.

Here's a fact for the GLZ moderator. I wonder how he would respond:

Yogi Bhajan KNOWINGLY protected pedophiles, child molesters, who either donated money to him or served him on his staff. When parents learned that their children had been molested and wanted to report it to the police they were threatened on the orders of Yogi Bhajan. Teachers at the Phoenix Ashram's Montessori school who wanted to go to the police were threatened with losing their jobs. Parents who pulled their children out of the India school program, some of whom left 3HO/SD entirely, were labeled "negative" and slandered by Yogi Bhajan. Yogi Bhajan verbally abused and cursed the children themselves.

The law in the United States requires that anyone who knows about sexual abuse of a child MUST report it to the authorities, yet Yogi Bhajan did not. Licensed attorneys on his staff did not report it. Licensed psychologists (including Yogi Bhajan and Bibiji) are required by law to report crimes against children. They did not report these crimes. Bhajan's ashram directors did not report it. These people are all guilty of breaking the law. Most of the rank and file members were not aware of the abuse, but as reports surfaced they were told that the accusers were "negative" or "out to get Yogi Bhajan" and therefor should be shunned.

We know that Yogi Bhajan was quite aware of the abuse. Instead of reporting it to the authorities he assigned meditations to the pedophiles to "cure" them. I know this is true because the pedophile who molested a member of my family told me that Bhajan assigned him to do a meditation that would cure him. As anyone who has studied pedophilia knows, pedophiles can NEVER be cured. Bhajan's entire motivation was to cover up the crimes in order to preserve his reputation.

To this day, no one in 3HO/SD will admit to child abuse in their organization or take steps to compensate the victims for the trauma they suffered. Instead, the victims and those who speak out on their behalf are labeled as "negative."

Has the GLZ Moderator even read the testimonials of the India Kids blog? How does he answer this information?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:46 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:54 pm
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Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Moderator Sahib, I beg you forbearance as I post a comment from someone who is not a member of this group.

She says: The GLZ Moderator says "you cannot blame all based on individuals." I don't see anyone blaming the entire group as Jespal Singh alleges. Personally, I put the blame primarily on Yogi Bhajan, but Jespal doesn't allow that. His argument is that since YB purportedly did some good things, we must not look at the bad things let alone criticize them. He calls this "being neutral."

This is a fallacious argument. It does not matter if a philanthropist donates millions of dollars to charity (which YB never did), if he is also guilty of heinous crimes against the innocent he MUST be held responsible.

Here's a fact for the GLZ Moderator. I wonder how he would respond:

Yogi Bhajan KNOWINGLY protected pedophiles, child molesters, who either donated money to him or served him on his staff. When parents learned that their children had been molested and wanted to report it to the police they were threatened on the orders of Yogi Bhajan. Teachers at the Phoenix Ashram's Montessori school who wanted to go to the police were threatened with losing their jobs. Parents who pulled their children out of the India school program, some of whom left 3HO/SD entirely, were labeled "negative" and slandered by Yogi Bhajan. Yogi Bhajan verbally abused and cursed the children themselves.

The law in the United States requires that anyone who knows about sexual abuse of a child MUST report it to the authorities, yet Yogi Bhajan did not. Licensed attorneys on his staff did not report it. Licensed psychologists (including Yogi Bhajan and Bibiji) are required by law to report crimes against children. They did not report these crimes. Bhajan's ashram directors did not report it. These people are all guilty of breaking the law. Most of the rank and file members were not aware of the abuse, but as reports surfaced they were told that the accusers were "negative" or "out to get Yogi Bhajan" and therefor should be shunned.

We know that Yogi Bhajan was quite aware of the abuse. Instead of reporting it to the authorities he assigned meditations to the pedophiles to "cure" them. I know this is true because the pedophile who molested a member of my family told me that Bhajan assigned him to do a meditation that would cure him. As anyone who has studied pedophilia knows, pedophiles can NEVER be cured. Bhajan's entire motivation was to cover up the crimes in order to preserve his reputation.

To this day, no one in 3HO/SD will admit to child abuse in their organization or take steps to compensate the victims for the trauma they suffered. Instead, the victims and those who speak out on their behalf are labeled as "negative."

Has the GLZ Moderator even read the testimonials of the India Kids blog? How does he answer this information?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:27 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:54 pm
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On that note, GLZ members discuss closing the thread.

Antion Vikram Singh Meredith Veer Balvinder Singh ji, I'm quite happy to see this thread close. I feel quite clear about all that has transpired. At some point I would like to write about how I became involved in Sikhi and kirtan as my experience was different from other 3HO people and may be of interest and inspiration to this group. Please advise if this is possible.


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